Employee Recognition: The Secret Sauce for Real DEI Impact with Dr. Meisha-ann Martin

Fatima Rangwala (00:00:05.21) Hi, everyone. Today's episode has been a long time coming. We are diving headfirst into a topic at the heart of every modern workplace: people.

That's right.

Powering recognition in HR, and in this age with AI. AI is rapidly reshaping the HR landscape, and understanding the human side of work has never been more important. Creating real impact starts with human connection, and we couldn't think of anyone better to guide us through this conversation. Joining us today is someone who truly gets this. For her, making a difference means getting down to that human level.

We're thrilled to welcome Dr. Meisha-ann Martin, VP of People Analytics at Workhuman. She's a leader in people analytics and employee experience, committed to building human-centered workplaces, and she's an absolutely positive thinking human being.

I'm your host, Fatima Rangwala, Strategic Content Head at HR Tech Cube, where we connect you with leading voices like hers to fuel your growth and forward-thinking mindset.

Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Martin.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:01:16.08) Thank you. I'm so excited.

Fatima Rangwala (00:01:18.20) Awesome. It's our pleasure, Dr. Martin. I think to have you on the show, we've been really looking forward to the chat because this is such a truly timely topic and your expertise really resonates with all that we are trying to do and heading in the HR tech space. Rather, before we get started, we would love to hear a bit about your background, Nisha Ann, and who are you as a person, and how does this space bring the best out of you?

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:01:51.22) I love that first question. We do something similar on our How We Work podcast, The Work Human, where we start off with the human, and I think it's It's such a great way to start. I think the important thing to know about me is that I was born and raised in a different country. I was born in Jamaica, and I came to the US for school. I came for my undergraduate degree, and I was really, really young. I remember thinking, Oh, my gosh, America is so rich. This is great. It's a wealthy country. I'm from Jamaica. Realizing that not every Everybody participated equally in that wealth. I wanted to be part of that solution. I just remember thinking, Oh, that's not right. I figured something out early that I now speak about a lot. I think it is really, really important for people to find their purpose. I think your purpose lies at the intersection between what you're good at and what you care about. I cared the fact that people weren't participating equally in the opportunities here because they weren't allowed to, and I was good at statistics. My passion for people analytics was born.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:03:15.02) I started my career wanting to really shed light on an equity using analytics and also using measurement and analysis for accountability. Are we really giving equal opportunities? Is the work experience as inclusive as we think? I've had a long career in people, analytics, and employee experience, and I've done it across a number of different industries for about two decades now. I'm still doing it. I still love it as much as I did on day one.

Fatima Rangwala (00:03:53.21) Awesome. Tell us more about the industries, Dr. Martin, that you've experimented or worked initially and then became an expert at what you do today.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:04:06.24) Yeah, I started out in financial services, and that is a great place to start because it is a very relationship-oriented business. On the client side, that works really well. In terms of people getting opportunities side, it can be a way for people not to get the same type of opportunities. That was a great place to cut my teeth in the beginning of my career. I remember introducing an employee engagement survey all the way back then in 2007, maybe. From there, I moved on to airlines. I worked at JetBlue. The cool thing about that experience was the opportunity to link employee experience to customer experience. That was really, really formative. Doing the analytics that proved that, Hey, how we treat people affects how they feel and what they do and how they behave in a way that customers can observe that we can show when we do the analytics linking these two things. Really, really cool experience. Then from there, I decided I wanted global experience. I went and worked for Flex, aka Flextronics. Lots of manufacturing. I learned a lot about the intersection between manufacturing and tech. I did a lot of visualization work. That's where I actually think people analytics doesn't do enough because we focus so much on the analytics that we don't think enough about metrics.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:05:47.07) If you do metrics well and show data really well, you can change the behavior in action and influence outcome. I did a lot of that work there, which was really, really cool. Then Then from Flex, I did a brief stint in talent management at Service Master, which was really cool because it broadened the way I thought about my career. I debated long and hard about going into talent management, and then I read work rules, and I was like, But I can apply these same ideas of analytics and experimentation to developing a talent experience that I can prove has an impact. I had fun doing that for a while. Then I came here to Workhuman. That's an HR tech company. It's another cool experience because I'm not in HR, but I'm for HR. I have the opportunity to talk to HR across a number of different companies and a number of different industries as I talk to our clients.

Fatima Rangwala (00:06:54.01) What's that one common thing that you noticed or experienced in all of these areas or all of these industries that you worked with? Something that is on top of your mind that you can share with us.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:07:10.21) I'll answer that question a couple of ways. Across my entire experience, one thing remains clear, no matter what you're trying to do, it starts with people. It all starts with people. I think so often we focus on the outcome instead of the people producing the outcomes. If you focus on the everything else follows, point blank, period. As it pertains to work human and our customers and the variety of industries there, I will say that we say we support the best cultures in the world. I really feel it, especially right now, as we're thinking about and talking about DEI a lot, our customers are still invoking invested in providing inclusive experiences for their populations. I'm just really, really proud of our client base.

Fatima Rangwala (00:08:11.18) Awesome. Thank you for sharing that, Dr. Martin. You're really about your journey sets the entire stage for where we are headed next into this conversation. Considering this immense background, you've worked with so many industries and so much experience, and so many things stand still and common in most of the areas of work. Having said that, what was the initial spark that ignited your passion for data, for employee experience, especially DEI, now that you mentioned about it. How does working in this unique space resonate with who you are at Workhuman? Let's get into the details about that.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:08:58.11) I'll I'll answer the first part of the question first, and then I'll ask you to repeat the second because I started thinking about the answer to the first part first. What inspired me was my origin story, because coming from Jamaica, I was not a minority. And so this new experience of being a minority and understanding what that means and what comes with that in this new country, that was really the inspiration for me to try to make things better. And then I just loved... I like the idea of making changes that you can prove are impactful. I love statistics just as a course. But then when I put that together, I was like, Wait, I could apply this to things to make sure that interventions are actually making a difference instead of just doing stuff that makes us feel good. I think my motivation comes from the combination of those things.

Fatima Rangwala (00:10:03.03) Okay, awesome. My second part of the question was, what is so unique about you working at Workhuman, and how do you resonate with all of these strategies?

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:10:18.02) It's interesting. I was on the job market having been laid off when George Floyd was murdered. George Floyd and that murder was a big turning point for how I approached my career. I got angry. My intent of making an impact in terms of equity and inclusion in the workplace, it was still... I was about to say it was the same, but it wasn't exactly the same. It was more enhanced. I wanted to do that more. But I started to feel like the way I was doing it wasn't enough. Before that point, I was very clinical in surfacing insights. I didn't want to be part of the story. I wanted to let the data speak. It's more of a removed scientist approach. When that happened, I switched to a more thought leadership focus because I had things to say. I had feelings. I finally came to terms with the fact that my experience was part of the story. If I added that together with the data and the research and the insights, I could perhaps influence people to make changes. It was with that intention that I went into the job market. I wanted a company that was trying to do something that was aligned with what I was trying to do.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:11:50.12) I like to say the universe delivered with work human because they, too, are trying to influence a positive work experience and inclusion across industries. The timing was just right for me to have a broader influence from a single company to multiple companies. The company was aligned with what I was trying to do with my life. One of the things I am super grateful for, so one of the first things I did at Workhuman was write an article about turning the moment into a movement I submitted it to Workhuman as one of the articles that we would- Contribute. Yeah, provide to the media, to the public, to shop around. I remember my first draft, the PR person said, Yeah, it's good, but it's not you. We don't see any of you in that article. That was a signal to me that my personality, my thoughts, my opinions were important and really belonged. I ended up redoing it with the same recommendations based on my experience, but also with how I felt about it and Workhuman loved it. I have been doing that thing for Workhuman ever since.

Fatima Rangwala (00:13:19.16) That's so awesome. You put yourself at the core there and you had your thoughts speak out loud. It's really true. When they say that you have the intent. Things do come naturally to you. I think that's what's happened with you. Such a powerful starting point with our conversation, Dr. Vata, really. Thank you for sharing what has fueled How does that influence your work by far, what's the highs and lows of your life, and building on that foundation. Let's dive more into understanding how the HR data is available nowadays. Are teams asking the right questions now that you're working with Workhuman? You must be interacting daily with so many people, so many clients. How do those teams ask the questions in their own organizations? Do they choose the tools that are enhancing their work process? Just as in the beginning, you said that it's all also about metrics. Yeah.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:14:29.14) That's I do not think that, for the most part, we're asking the right questions. What I see a lot in the HR space is HR leaders saying, What data we have? What data do we have? When really that's the wrong question. The right question is, What is the data that we need? Because sometimes you have to create the data or go out and seek the data. I think focusing on the data you have is easy, but it doesn't give you the information you need. What I recommend is something I've been using my entire career that I call the Nirvana approach, which is you start with the business strategy. What is the HR strategy that supports that? When you get to the HR strategy, what does success look like in this environment? You break that down to success statements, and then from each success statement, you come up with indicators of what would tell you how close you are to that success that you've just outlined. I think that that is the first thing. The second thing regarding where HR is going, I'm seeing this wonderful trend in the HR space, and work human is a part of that.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:15:47.09) I would say about 10 years ago, we were very focused on HR tech that helped people do things. We did not think about experience for the users of that software. I think about some of the recruiting software that was very task-focused and not experience-focused. We have moved on to technologies that help people feel things, not just technology that helps people do things. As we get more distributed and work across borders, this is important because the technology becomes part of the employee experience and not just something that enables a task. Then The next frontier of that is now that we're leveraging technology in this way, what is the data that we can get from that technology that can further enhance the employee experience? This is where work human is really, really strongly contributing in this space, and I'm so proud to be able to say that.

Fatima Rangwala (00:16:51.00) That's really fascinating. I think you've already answered how work human does just beyond the tools and setting those clear objectives. It's very important. Also, this is something that is touching something upon an important topic that I have always been wondering. But before we move on to that, I would like to ask you, how do HRs set their strategies? I have always wondered, is it that they look at people and then they set it up, or is it always a two-way street? How does the industry... HR is always the core of the organization. It's the core of the world. It's so into the focal point there. How do they come up with these strategies? Do they interact? Of course, having employee experience, feedback, the retention phase, the talent acquisition phase. That teaches them a lot of stuff. But we often peek into HR strategies and we build up our own metrics. But how does it work for the HR? I know you're not in HR, as you said that, but you do work for HR. Yeah, right.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:18:11.24) But I have been. There are two main ways. You've probably heard the phrase, HR wants to sit at the table. That is said a lot. There's a reason for that because the first part of an HR strategy should be this. What is the business strategy? Which is why they have to be at the table to understand that because any business strategy has a people component. If you're trying to expand in this area, you will likely need more people, different competencies, that thing, and that becomes part of the HR strategy. The other HR strategy is employee experience. Who do we want to be as a company where people, leaders, HR experience is concerned? We want to be diverse. Okay, let's analyze what that looks like for us currently. Where are the gaps in that? We want an employee experience that looks like this. This is our employee value proposition, which, again, should be related to who the business is and what the culture of the business is is going for. The other part of it is doing an analysis of who you say you want to be and what you say you want to be, who you are currently, and the strategy should be closing the gap in exactly how you do that.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:19:49.15) Those are the two elements to a good HR strategy.

Fatima Rangwala (00:19:54.03) I think that's so well put up, Dr. Martin, and thank you for answering that on behalf of the HRs. I mean, this is something that we always wonder, and thank you for saying that. Throughout history, we've seen so many transformative errors. We've seen agricultural age, we've seen industrial revolution, and now it's the information age. Each of this has brought its own set of challenges and opportunities for how we work and how we value people. Today's times are very high octane. It's a completely digital-first AI economy. We are slowly shifting this conversation to AI in HR, which is redefining everything, all the fundamentals, recruitment, talent acquisition, performance engagement, management, employee recognition. Speaking of that, I think recognition is a prime here. It shows up just everywhere in every department, just not at all. We've I've seen a lot of companies, big to small, invest in AI, invest in these LLMs, where they plug in to harness that potential. But I think surveys do say that, and you could correct me if I'm wrong here. 1% of leaders consider that their organizations are AI mature. This raises a very important question that how are business leaders in HR moving beyond experimentation, rather.

Fatima Rangwala (00:21:33.19) They're just not experimenting. Let's argue on that. They're using AI in ways to add that real value to their structure, to their organizational structure, anything. With all the common pitfalls, what is it that you would want to tell us more on that?

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:21:52.11) I think that we have to be very intentional about how we use AI. I I heard this somewhere else, and I can't remember where I heard it. Otherwise, I would give the attribution. But I heard somewhere, we're trying to turn the robots into humans and the humans into robots. I think AI as an efficiency play is a great idea, but it is not enough. What we really should be doing is thinking about how we can use AI to augment or improve the most human aspects of ourselves. How can it make us not just the most efficient human, but the best human that ever did human? So we can optimize our humanity. This is what I really love about WorkHumans AI as an example. In our recognition tool, you can choose to use the inclusion advisor. You write a message message, and you choose to use the inclusion advisor, and it will highlight potential biases in negative language. Because as you're trying to connect with somebody through a recognition message, you can inadvertently say the wrong thing. This is an example of how AI does so much more than makes us more efficient. I think it's important to think about it that way.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:23:27.14) It is also important to think about how it supports what we're trying to do. When I think about something like skills, lots of people are trying to come up with a skills architecture, become a more skills-driven organization. We can ask ourselves, Okay, how does AI contribute to that? Also, when AI contributes to that, how does that improve the human experience? One of the things I'm really excited by is using recognition data to infer skills about people. Imagine this, it's all these different people giving me feedback about my strengths, essentially. And the data that is collected in our system from the recognition platform can be aggregated and analyzed through AI to tell me what my skills are. That changes how I think about it. That's awesome. Yeah. How that changes how I show up. It is innately empowering. I would like us to think about AI in that way, not just how it makes us more efficient, but also how it makes us better in completely different ways.

Fatima Rangwala (00:24:47.07) You start looking at people and things so positively because you have a very clean language. You've been given a feedback in a very clean way. There's no room or space for negativity. I mean, that's really a very interesting perspective. How are the designs and any parameters or KPIs that work human? I'm sure you just mentioned that. But how are organizations How are organizations ensuring that these tools enhance rather than dilute, as you said, the genuine human connection? How are organizations doing it and to what level have they achieved to make their feedback or make their recognition program very AI-centered?

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:25:37.17) Yeah, I think in terms of success metrics, for recognition, you have to first get to a point of robustness before you can use recognition data this way. You have to have most of the organization participating in the experience. You have to have a robust recognition habit where people are being frequently recognized. Then each recognition message has to be high quality, which is another way we use AI in our system to coach you along to write a better message. Where recognition is concerned, those are the success metrics. But I think in general, where AI and technology is concerned, each organization should think about, what do we want AI to do for us? How do we to see AI contributing to our strategy, to our experience? What does good look like? Then come up with their own metrics of success for that for each partner that they're working with. I think too often we just stop and we go, Oh, yes, it has AI. Okay, but for what, contributing to what? I think the other thing that is really important as organizations try to get AI mature is to make sure that you're doing the change management required to make sure it takes hold beyond the senior leaders.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:27:09.06) In our research, we find that employees are reticent to use AI. They don't know what the rules are. Even people who are using AI, they're not sure they should be. They're thinking, should I admit that AI helped me with this, or am I going to signal I can't do my job. And so this communications part is really, really important. And what we find is that when you match recognition with skills and you use recognition to support upskilling and send the message that, yes, this is something that we want you to do, not only are people more likely to do that thing because positive reinforcement works that way and it is undefeated, but also people are more to feel like your organization is a great place to grow and have a career, and so they're more likely to stay with you as well as a result.

Fatima Rangwala (00:28:12.06) Absolutely. I mean, these are very helpful KPIs and parameters I think organizations should actually keep in mind to formulate or to build up a very robust system. This also brings us very closely to the the theme which is psychological safety. Because I'm sure while we are doing all of this, it impacts the psyche of a person, of the one who's creating that tool, of the organization of the entire vision of the business. Psychological safety is very foundational. It's an inclusive an environment where employees feel comfortable. They would want to contribute their diverse perspectives, as you kept saying. From that lens, Dr. Martin, how can organizations use people analytics in your experience to enhance, to identify threats, or assess any culture that is built on trust and openness? What are those leading indicators that they should give them?

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:29:30.02) I definitely recommend Amy Edmondson's Psychological Safety Scale, even if I know there is limited real estate in org surveys. So even maybe just a question about feeling comfortable speaking up. In general, when we're thinking about organizational metrics and analytics, I think we need to get more creative and curious. In addition to asking those questions, look at the ways that different people are answering those questions. Look at maybe your ethics question. There's usually one about, I feel safe reporting without fear of reprisal, that thing. Maybe you want to do a demographic split on that question. Don't forget your response rates. Look at whether your response rates are equivalent across different different groups. I think there are so many different ways to look at, are people participating equally in your organization? Are they having similar experiences? We look at our recognition data that way for clients? Are people equally likely to give and get recognition? When they get recognition, and in our system, you can attach points to it, are people getting similar point levels or similar similar amounts of points for similar work. These are all things that you need to be asking yourselves and then figuring out how to measure, which is why I'm so passionate about the question coming first and not the data coming first.

Fatima Rangwala (00:31:15.17) That makes sense, actually. What are the points? Tell us more about what points people experience.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:31:26.01) Yes. The points associated with recognition, right? Yeah. It's so interesting because so often I get pushback on this idea of adding a monetary component to recognition. And yet, I'm going to take it real basic, right? When we train our animals, we give them a treat when they do something good. And that is because of the theory of positive reinforcement that is undefeated over time. And it is so well-researched and supported that it just makes our way into how we do things, except people get stuck when it comes to recognition. But it's the same idea. When I get something I want, after I did a particular behavior, I learn to repeat the behavior. Now, want is an important qualifier here, which is why we use points. So often people recognize and they give a gift card. How do you know the person wants a gift card? How do you know the person wants that gift card? In our system, what we do, because we know these things, is when you write a recognition message, you can give points with the message, and then the person can redeem the points for what they want, not what we want.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:32:48.16) It makes it work better because it's personalized, which, according to our research, is very, very important in terms of the impact of recognition. But the other thing that it does is it extends the cycle of positive feelings. I've redeemed for a coffee maker. When I make my coffee every morning, I remember that this came from recognition from my colleagues. We also have this feature now that we call reward stories. Now I can post and say, Hey, this is what I'm rewarded for, and my coworkers get to know me a little bit better, which continues to foster this feeling of connection that is related to psychological safety and social well-being.

Fatima Rangwala (00:33:40.24) Okay, awesome. I know that that is very important. Apart from consistency, you also get what you want. The intent for that is very clear. Dr. Martin, you've worked with so many organizations, as you said, Flex and Jet Blue and Workhuman, when it comes to understanding the what and where of diversity data, many HR professionals still feel very overwhelmed. In your expertise? What are the critical success factors that distinguishes this recognition program from those that fall flat? I'm sure Workhuman is doing a superb job here, but what about the other organizations?

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:34:31.18) We've done research on what makes a recognition program the most impactful it can possibly be. There are five things that we find are differentiators. The first thing is fulfilling, or I like to say, calibrated. People who do a lot should get a lot. Nobody wants to do work that they think doesn't matter and nobody sees. So recognition, when it's done really well, it's about catching good behavior when it happens and doing that with consistency. People should feel like they get the right amount of recognition for the work that they do. It should feel authentic. What helps with this is to be specific in your message, what are you saying thank you for and what is the impact of that behavior or that trait that you're complementing? This also creates information density, by the way, when you're trying to use for other things like inferring skills. That's why I throw away, Thank you for doing a good job. It's better than nothing, but it's not exactly the best. That's the second thing. The third thing I've already mentioned is personalized. I need to be recognized the way I want to be recognized. Some people don't like to be recognized publicly.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:35:54.12) You should know that. Do not call them up on stage if that's not something you want.

Fatima Rangwala (00:36:02.05) Save the embarrassment.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:36:03.19) Right? But actually, when you do it in a technology like ours, public comes in the form of a social feed, which most people are used to. And so you get the benefit of amplifying good behavior on a social feed without the ick of like, oh, everybody's staring at me. So that's really cool, too. Four, it has to be equitable. If I do something, my coworker does the same thing. I have to feel like we have an equal chance of being recognized. This is why the audit of the program is so important, and we help with that because you want to make sure that you have an equitable program. Then lastly, it should be embedded in the culture of the organization. It shouldn't be happening in pockets. Ideally, you have people recognizing a lot, not just managers to peers, but peers to peers across departments. There are good things that happen when an individual feels recognized. There are additional good things that happen or that impact is magnified when people feel like they work somewhere where recognition happens and they see it frequently. Those are the five things to keep in mind.

Fatima Rangwala (00:37:23.19) Absolutely. Thank you so much for that, Dr. Martin. Really well put up and very, very Insightful tips that you've given to our audience, to our listeners today. I appreciate all of that you're saying. I mean, it's really important to have recognition. As humans, we do struggle, and not because we don't care. I mean, I'm sure it's just because we are moving very, very fast to notice anything around us. We need to take that moment of pause and look deeper, plan better, Structure everything and invest where we are going to get value out of people and our business. I think we come to the conclusion of this episode. Dr. Martin, you've been so fantastic in the way you've navigated this conversation. You've said so much in such little time, and we hate to part ways with you right now, but I'm sure our listeners would learn so much from your perspectives. So thank you for your time today.

Dr. Meisha-ann Martin (00:38:31.09) Thank you. It has been my pleasure. I appreciate it.

The Vodcast features Dr. Meisha-ann Martin, VP of People Research at Workhuman, engaging in a detailed conversation with Fatima Rangwala, Strategic Content Head at HRTech Cube. The discussion surrounds the vital role of human capital within contemporary organizations and explores the influence of AI on HR practices. With quite a rich professional background, Dr. Martin demonstrates a profound commitment to utilizing data analytics to drive equity and inclusion, also emphasizing the importance of data-driven strategies to enhance workplace culture and employee engagement.

• Leveraging AI to power employee recognition in HR
• Fostering social connections by Creating people-centered workplaces
• Dr. Martin's mission to use data for advancing equity and inclusion.
• Finding purpose at the intersection of skills and personal passion.
• Integrating customer service with employee experience.
• Applying AI and Data Analytics in People Analytics.
• Prioritizing people for positive organizational outcomes
• Continuous learning and investing in personal career growth.
• Using recognition data to infer and understand employee skills.
• Highlighting the role of positive reinforcement in effective recognition

Join us for a compelling look at how data and technology can strengthen human connections, inspire purpose, and make the work experience genuinely meaningful.